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Topic Subject:Countering Archer units info
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Scotty the Fallen
Dúnadan
posted 05-29-06 10:21 PM EDT (US)         
Greetings!

As you are no doubt aware of, Rangers are what a lot of people are clamoring for a nerf. I hate nerfs, they take the fun out of a game in some respects, as well as they tend to go too far in the nerfing aspect to the point of making whatever was OP useless. That said, let us go on to the basics!


Know your archers

The first thing to know about countering archers in general, is to know how much damage they do. The only things that archers Significantly damage by themselves with no help or upgrades whatsoever is Swordsmen and pikes. Pikes take 150% damage from pierce damage (The damage archers inflict, base amount of damage taken is 100%), and Swordsmen take 125% damage from pierce. that said, you need to now how much damage the archers actually do.


Below is a guide I have prepared from my experience to help defend against those overpowered archers.

Mirkwood Archers

Base Damage: 90 Pierce
Base Health: 200
Upgraded Damage: 175 Pierce/Magic/Flame
Max Health: 280


Description:Mirkwood archers have been significantly improved in 1.05. Now at 700 Resources and a level 2 Barracks, you will see more of these mighty archers on the battlefield.


How To Counter:In order to counter the noble archers of Mirkwood, use cavalry, any will do. Siege, if you can catch them off guard, and other archers, provided that you outnumber them 2:1. Beware, Mirkwood archers are always stealthed and heal whenever they have a banner carrier in their squad, making them a deadly foe to reckon with if used correctly.


Gondor/Dunedain Rangers

Base Damage: 65 Pierce
Base Health: 300
Upgraded Damage: 100 Pierce/Flame
Max Health: 380
Longshot Damage: 100
Special: Double fire Rate, +35% Damage to non-summoned monsters

Description:Rangers have been devastated in our recent patch, Losing all of their fire damage, a cost and command point increase, and a health and damage reduction, Rangers definitely got the short end of the stick in our latest patch, the only plus side is their double fire rate, and a bonus VS monsters, good luck Ithilien...

How to Counter:Rangers greatest Enemy is cavaly, considering their abysmal armor to trampling, no Ranger is safe against any army.


Haradrim Warriors

Base Damage: 65 Pierce
Base Health: 250
Upgraded Damage: 90 Pierce/Flame
Max Health: 330
Barbed Arrow Damage: +50% Damage, Meta impact

Description:Haradrim have been given a huge boost, with a faster rate of fire, barbed arrows recharging in six seconds, they are the ultimate anti-cavalry archer around.

How to Counter:Pretty much go for cavalry. If protected by pikes, send infantry and archers. Swordsmen do considerably more damage to archers then in previous patches, and can prove to be a hindrance to archer dependent players.


Men of Dale

Base Damage: 50 Pierce
Base Health: 200
Upgraded Damage: 75 Pierce/Flame
Max Health: 280
Black Arrow Damage: 150 Hero Damage, Fear.

Description:Men of Dale are useful, and now better considering they have had a speed boost thanks to our latest patch.

How to Counter:Men of Dale can cause problems if they are allowed to fire into the middle of your army. The army cowers in fear and they can randomly pick off targets at ease. To remove the threat of fear, bring a leadership hero. Leadership, if present at the time of the terror attack will negate the fear, and allow your soldiers to battle on. Should no heros be present, use cavalry, or infantry if you can catch up to them.


Axe Throwers

Base Damage: 20 Slash
Base health: 240
Upgraded damage: 75 Slash
Max Health: 320

Description:Axe Throwers have long been feared for their excellence in rushing economic dependent players. Add the fact that they are more resilient to close attacks and damage than normal archers only adds more to their effectiveness.

How to Counter: Axe throwers are often protected by their tank-like bretheren, Phalanxes or Guardians. So the best thing to counter dwarven units in general is take advantage of their slow speed and pick them off with Archers, if you have any. Should you be lucky enough to come across a dwarven player in absence of Pikes, use cavalry like there's no tomorrow, because he will definitely build some after that.


Lorien Archers

Base Damage: 40 Pierce
Base Health: 125
Upgraded damage: 40 Pierce/Magic
Max Health: 205

Description:Lorien Archers have the best basic archer damage. However, like their Mirkwood bretheren, they tend to fall rather quickly as no player goes unaware of their existence for too long.

How to Counter:Cavalry will kill these guys instantly, and the lack of versatile pike units for the elves means that pikes might not show too much of an impediment.


Gondor Archers

Base Damage: 25 Pierce
Base Health: 100
Upgraded damage: 57 Pierce/Flame
Max Health: 180

Description:Gondor Archers, at last, were improved, and now are worth something, especially now that Rangers were completely overhauled.

How to counter:For the most part, Cavalry will work, but other archers can take them out too.


Uruk Crossbows

Base Damage: 65 pierce
Base Health: 110
Upgraded damage: 65 Pierce/Flame
Max Health: 190

Description:The only Ranged unit for Isengard, you'll have to take what you get. Crossbows have a greatly improved firepower, and pack a very nasty punch.

How to Counter: Cavalry will always counter archers, but Uruk crossbows I find tend to have a slow reload time, so other archers may prove proficient.


Orc and Goblin archers

Base Damage: 20 Pierce (Both)
Base Health: 100 (Orcs) 80 (Goblins)
Upgraded damage: 35 Pierce/Flame (Both)
Max Health: 180 (Orcs) 160 (Goblins)

Description:Orc and Goblin archers are basically used for the same purpose: En Masse Merely for a distraction to allow the warriors to finish off anything that could impede the production of the enemy.

How to Counter: Because they are so weak, anything except pikes and swordsmen. Beware of masses though.

That's it. Questions? Comments? Post away!


Scotty the Fallen | One-time Angel Reincarnate, and Former BFME2H and TWH Downloads administrator, and BFME2 Strategy Administrator.
"And I shall go softly into the night, taking my dreams, as will you." - EoJ
"Scotty's probably the only forumer here who can make every post a defiant claim of his own superiority." - Atzy

[This message has been edited by SuicidalScotsman (edited 12-13-2006 @ 04:12 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
PhantomS
Dúnadan
posted 05-29-06 10:55 PM EDT (US)     1 / 38       
Haradrim Archers' Barbed shot is quite useful for nailing Cavalry due to the meta damage, provided that they're being protected by another unit. They take too long to load, but one Harad troop can fire a rapid volley at a cavalry unit and KO them in no time.

Goblin Archers have poison and move rather quickly, at least enough to worry an opponent who stares at the radar. A good distraction indeed, but Orc and Goblin archers should be used primarly for stationing towers and support fire. Both Mordor Orc and Goblin players should focus on their pikemen and cavalry for the win.

Uruk Crossbowmen should garrison towers and stand across rivers, never lead an assault and should have pikers nearby, as well as Lurtz or some other Custom hero with leadership.

Rangers of Ithillien are easier to mass than Mirkwood Archers, especially with an Inn (hey,they're all Dunedain). The Northern Dunedain are tougher and have longer range, but ultimately all are equal.

LEGOLAIM
Dúnadan
posted 05-30-06 02:23 AM EDT (US)     2 / 38       
I think the haradrim should fire at the same rate as they shoot the barbed arrows.

Legolaim
Brigader General
Bendak
Dúnadan
posted 05-31-06 12:54 PM EDT (US)     3 / 38       
Stickied!

I hope you will enter in more units, swordsmen and pikes for example . That would make the thread perfect for newcomers.


B e n d e r s . . . 2004

ex SWGBH scn designer
ex BFME2H cherub
Master Kamst
Dúnadan
posted 06-08-06 04:17 AM EDT (US)     4 / 38       
I don't think haradrim are a problem for anyone lol they really suck lol. good job
Darth Persia
Banned
posted 06-08-06 10:41 AM EDT (US)     5 / 38       

Quote:

As you are no doubt aware of, Rangers are what a lot of people are clamoring for a nerf. I hate nerfs, they take the fun out of a game in some respects, as well as they tend to go too far in the nerfing aspect to the point of making whatever was OP useless. That said, let us go on to the basics!

Speaking from a practical standpoint, it is alot easier to lower the stats of one overpowered unit then to raise the stats of everything else.

The weakness of Haradrim archers is a disgrace. Looking at their cost (not to mention the tremendous cost to upgrade. Level 3 tavern for fire arrows?!)

Their pathetic rate of fire is bad enough, but their special isn't up to snuff compared to longshot. Yes, they are somewhat more resiliant, but who exactly counts on having sturdy archers? I've searched in vain for a use for Haradrim archers in terms of balance, but can find none. They're certainly better than orc archers, but that's not really saying much.

IMO, there are a few things you can do. Any of these would IMO be good.

1. Make there be more men in a company of Haradrim.
2. Lower the cost\build time.
3. Increase the fire rate.
4. Increase Barbed arrow.

Bendak
Dúnadan
posted 06-08-06 11:07 AM EDT (US)     6 / 38       
They already are ownage when used right.

+ They can resist cavalry better than any other archers due to lots of HP
+ They are a decent counter to enemy archers, especially when upgraded (they get HA which gives them even more health)
+ The Barbed Arrow attack is awesome, especially in early game. Its like Lego's Hawk Strike x5.

Dont treat them like any normal archer, treat them like Haradrim .


B e n d e r s . . . 2004

ex SWGBH scn designer
ex BFME2H cherub
Soicx
Dúnadan
posted 06-11-06 04:39 PM EDT (US)     7 / 38       
the best way to counter all archers is cavalry, hit em hard and run your ass off!!! lol. all archers get owned by fast cavalry surges.

This is not my post, as you are the people who own the site and are going to read it so really it is your post.

This is not a post at all, as posts have to provide a sturdy foundation for a fence, this does not. it is a gate masquerading as a post.

So really this gate masquerading as a post is completely pointless!!

PhantomS
Dúnadan
posted 06-12-06 03:51 AM EDT (US)     8 / 38       
When rushing archer units, don't charge down the middle but shave off the side and do a U turn ,targetting the ground on the other side. Archers take time to shoot and getting run over doesn't help LOL

An attack Troll side attack can smash archers and confuse even the most CPU-like players, since the AT disables but doesn't immediately kill all the archers.

The Barb Arrow attack has very high splash effect ,especially against cavalry. Use it well and back the HA up with pikes and orc archers flamed up.

H65536H
Dúnadan
posted 06-27-06 02:48 PM EDT (US)     9 / 38       
I don't think that Mirkwood Archers are now a big threat - lol. Yes they're the best archers in the game (in fact it could be argued that the Dunedain are with their long shot), but thanks to the update, they are no longer really worth the money to build, since the silverthorne arrows are not as powerful. For $800, you could buy almost 3 Lorien archers. EA should never have weakened the Mirkwood Archers. I never use them anymore, other than in mods where everything is properly balanced. The elves need a boost; I never play as elf now.

As for Haradrim, they are not as bad as some people really say they are. For Mordor, they are quite an improvement of the Orc Archers that seem to be massed by them. On the other hand, the Mumakil could use a boost as well - they should have more Haradrim archers mounted on them and more health.

LEGOLAIM
Dúnadan
posted 06-27-06 11:36 PM EDT (US)     10 / 38       
Mirkwood archers are a real big threat when inside a tower. They can cover a large portion or area just like helms deep top wall style . It's hard to actually get to the tower and take it out then they just build another and its a nightmare then they finish the game when they get the elven heroes or ents.

Legolaim
Brigader General
ooutroll
Dúnadan
posted 07-09-06 05:14 PM EDT (US)     11 / 38       
Speaking of countering archers, the dwarven battlewagon is by far the most effective, as it isn't affected by any shockwave. Just keep them away from pikes, and 2 or 3 properly used battlewagons can annihilate an archer army

~-,-
~/`4:20
H65536H
Dúnadan
posted 07-13-06 11:49 AM EDT (US)     12 / 38       
To be honest Legolaim, I think that for the money, Itilien Rangers are a better buy - due to their longshot. That is a nightmare when the enemy masses them - and can defend them adequately. But I agree that Mirkwood archers are pretty good - despite the fact that they have low hp. Their rate of fire is double that of Itilien rangers (0.875s vs. Ranger: 1.75s). But this I feel is negated by longshot. It gets so dangerous that sometimes you cannot afford to leave your units stationary!

You should probably try to rush an elf-player early on. He is not going to throw Mirkwood archers at you right away - more likely Lorien archers or swordsmen or a lancer rush. (or if he does, than he's probably spent all of his resources on upgrading that barracks - which you should blow up right away with cavalry).

As for using battlewagons - a good player will likely try to shield his archers with pikes. Maybe massing catapults will work. I cannot make any assurances, though.

ooutroll
Dúnadan
posted 07-13-06 02:56 PM EDT (US)     13 / 38       
Massing catapults and attack trolls owns almost everything in the game, but it is insanely expensive. Battlewagons are a cheaper way to kill archers, just go around the pikes, they have no hope of catching a battlewagon.

~-,-
~/`4:20
Scotty the Fallen
Dúnadan
posted 09-21-06 07:07 PM EDT (US)     14 / 38       
Updated Statistics for 1.05

Enjoy


Scotty the Fallen | One-time Angel Reincarnate, and Former BFME2H and TWH Downloads administrator, and BFME2 Strategy Administrator.
"And I shall go softly into the night, taking my dreams, as will you." - EoJ
"Scotty's probably the only forumer here who can make every post a defiant claim of his own superiority." - Atzy
Bendak
Dúnadan
posted 09-29-06 01:23 AM EDT (US)     15 / 38       
thanks

B e n d e r s . . . 2004

ex SWGBH scn designer
ex BFME2H cherub
LEGOLAIM
Dúnadan
posted 10-26-06 01:45 AM EDT (US)     16 / 38       
Mordor's HA don't have fire arrows now.

Not good enough SS tsk tsk tsk.


Legolaim
Brigader General
Merc1997
Dúnadan
posted 12-05-06 12:10 PM EDT (US)     17 / 38       
Personally I find heroes and GPs such as Volley are very useful against them, as well as heavy cav. A tip for countering TAs; mass infantry. Cavs just get mown down.
Thomas of Hunter
Dúnadan
posted 04-16-07 10:16 PM EDT (US)     18 / 38       
Nobody has said anything about uruk crossbows. I think they are the most balanced archer in the gam, but I don't play with men a lot so I'm not sure.

He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. ~ Jim Elliot
"I gladly count my life as loss, that I might come to know the glory of the Cross."
"I reject your reality and substitue my own" Adam Savage

[This message has been edited by Thomas of Hunter (edited 04-16-2007 @ 10:17 PM).]

Smeagolfan24
WICH Fanfic Moderator
posted 04-16-07 10:26 PM EDT (US)     19 / 38       
Crossbows are mainly used as a light ranged unit to back up a warg rush. Isengard isn't a ranged faction, so their firing units are limited to crossbows and ballistas; however, I've used Lurtz paired with crossbows that make an excellent combo.

.:|Smeagol|:.
World in Conflict Heaven Cherub
Battle For Middle-earth II Heaven Replay Reviewer and Ledgend

Where did I go wrong? I lost a friend somewhere along in the bitterness.
Oh, I would have stayed up with you all night, had I known how to save a life...
Scotty the Fallen
Dúnadan
posted 04-16-07 10:28 PM EDT (US)     20 / 38       
By the Same token, Crossbows have an abhorrently long Reload time and poor damage in ROTWK, and poor health/Armour in BFME2 1.06

Scotty the Fallen | One-time Angel Reincarnate, and Former BFME2H and TWH Downloads administrator, and BFME2 Strategy Administrator.
"And I shall go softly into the night, taking my dreams, as will you." - EoJ
"Scotty's probably the only forumer here who can make every post a defiant claim of his own superiority." - Atzy
Smeagolfan24
WICH Fanfic Moderator
posted 04-16-07 10:38 PM EDT (US)     21 / 38       
Not to mention the long build time and cost of fire arrows. I've never seen an experienced Isengard player use these except when absolutely needed.

.:|Smeagol|:.
World in Conflict Heaven Cherub
Battle For Middle-earth II Heaven Replay Reviewer and Ledgend

Where did I go wrong? I lost a friend somewhere along in the bitterness.
Oh, I would have stayed up with you all night, had I known how to save a life...
Scorch062
Dúnadan
posted 04-19-07 07:38 AM EDT (US)     22 / 38       
They arnt that bad, they can be useful when vsing early game units.

".`.rh, rmg hrg .`."
"Executing order 66 my lord"
"If we're all clones, why am I the only one with a sense of humor?"
BFME2 Replay Reviewer
GeneralVon
Dúnadan
posted 05-17-07 10:18 AM EDT (US)     23 / 38       
archers countering archers??? :/

calv counters archers and so does axe throwers. unless you wanna have 2 archers left in a batalion dont counter archers with more archers calv is the way to go.
Catabre
BFME2H Replay Reviewer - Library Guildsman
posted 05-17-07 11:21 AM EDT (US)     24 / 38       
I only use crossbows to defend the top of the Helm's Deep walls. IMO Mirkwood archers are cheapskate, hate fighting the. Their balanced out a lot more in ROTWK. Personally Haradrim are some of my favorite.

"Apparently, arguing for the right to do something no-one wants to do is the lifeblood of HG." - TaylorFlame

"Whatever happened, BFME2H did it better. No Exceptions." - EnemyofJupitor
GeneralVon
Dúnadan
posted 05-17-07 11:49 AM EDT (US)     25 / 38       
i dont play rotwk but i do play bfme2. and archers are a bad idea to counter other archers. which ever group fires first wins the battle.
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